Did Jesus actually die on a Cross? I asked Sire this question on WritingUp last year - he recalls the question posed in my post and also that he commented on it as well.
For two thousand years the cross has been the most recognisable religious symbol of all; millions around the world wear one around their necks,while others revere the symbol as the sacred instrument on which Jesus was put to death on Calvary hill. But was it actually a cross?
It has been written that crosses actually preceded the Christian era, being used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols for worshipping their fertility god Tammaz. The cross soon spread into Egypt, India,Syria and China; centuries later the ancient Israelites adulterated their worship with that of Tammaz as well.
When referring to the instrument of execution for Jesus' death; Mathew,Mark, Luke and John all used the word stau-ros' in their gospels- this refers to an upright pole,stake or post!
The apostle Peter reportedly used the word xylon, meaning tree as a synonym for stau-ros' - not a two beamed cross, but an upright timber or tree.It was apparently about 300 years after Jesus' death that the idea he was put to death on a two beamed cross was promoted by some professed Christians. Since then the Cross has become the symbol of his death and a Christian icon!
I am pleased to reintroduce this post from my archives for your interest here.
__________________________
Kiwi Riverman
How can you prove that Jesus actually died on the cross?
Submitted by TheGreatWhiteBuffalo on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 21:27.
Are you going to offer recolections of writers that wanted to believe that Jesus actually died?
They couldn't see the obvious so they wrote from their perspective. What other examples do you need to read that we should be familiar with when it comes to current events. It is the same lie being told over and over.
What is the truth, one pole a pole and a beam it doesn't mean that Jesus actually died on one or the other design your content has nothing to do with proving the answer to the question.
What are the Myths of Jesus?
Did Jesus actually exist?
These are important questions to ask before you listen to any leader of any organized religion that wishes to hold to a flawed doctorine.
How do I know the Bible has a flawed doctorine, well let's start with the fact that I can read, and if I can read I can write.
Could Jesus write? I'll bet that everything that Jesus ever wrote was destroyed.
How can you find what no longer exists?
What I believe is that Jesus taught from the heart, and that the teachings of the Heart of GOD are divine. From that perspective you will have knowledge of good and bad.
Oral Tradition
Submitted by communat on Wed, 09/19/2007 - 10:15.
Gary wrote: "Could Jesus write? I'll bet that everything that Jesus ever wrote was destroyed."
What does that have to do with the cross? In Jesus time and before, most things were transmitted by oral tradition. The authors of the biblical books set history to text for future generations. One of Jesus' many names is in fact, "The Word."
__________________________
Yours,
Communat / Mark Whitbeck
Founder / Communati.com
You talk. I'll listen.
I suppose one could assume
Submitted by Sire on Thu, 09/20/2007 - 03:25.
I suppose one could assume that if a person could read he could also write. That being the case then the as Bible shows that Jesus could read, he would also be able to write.
St. Luke 4:16,17
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written.....
and then he read from the book.
My post was not about doubt...
Submitted by huttriver14 on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 21:30.
but about the means of his execution.I'm not a great church going man, but I have no doubts about Jesus. What gets up my nose is the drivel that some attribute to this man.
Doubt is the other side of the coin...
Submitted by TheGreatWhiteBuffalo on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:22.
I have no doubt that Jesus existed, what I doubt is as you say the drivel that some attribute to the man.
In the day a virgin birth was the first birth of a child. The term virgin has evolved into a term of purity and abstinence so this new translation flaws the script.
The death on the cross that could easily have been a revival was turned into a grave error by worshipping the person and not following the teachings.
Would Jesus want to be worshipped as the tool for war?
From the perspective of GOD Or The ultimate Sacrafice
There is a diplomatic solution and Islam like the enemy of democracy that is just like the word Communist was as it was created for and used back in the 1950's to create the cold war.
The new enemy isn't the terrorist, it is the Islamist.
President Bush is turning the war straight into a religious war based upon idealistic values.
President Bush and his supporters are going to lose big...
Now you have hit it...
Submitted by huttriver14 on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:31.
Islam is the new Communism!
Where did you get this?
Submitted by communat on Wed, 09/19/2007 - 10:18.
"In the day a virgin birth was the first birth of a child. The term virgin has evolved into a term of purity and abstinence so this new translation flaws the script."
You don't think people knew what a virgin was back then? C'mon. People could build pyramids and all sorts of wonders, but they didn't know a virgin was?
__________________________
Yours,
Communat / Mark Whitbeck
Founder / Communati.com
You talk. I'll listen.
I have no way to even guess about this
Submitted by Trick Falls on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 21:58.
Most of the testimony was written so long after the fact and has been re-translated to many times by people with one agenda or another, that stating an opinion here would be pretty much my "making it up."
The cross, of course, in many people's minds refers to the soul perched (so to speak) on the physical body, and that image is a powerful one regardless of whether the original was a tree or a pole.
TF
You may find this post of
Submitted by Sire on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:08.
You may find this post of interest.
Really it matters not whether he died on a cross or a stake, only that he died so that those who believed could be saved.
As someone said...
Submitted by huttriver14 on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:08.
so long ago now, does it really matter?
I quickly read the first part of the article...
Submitted by huttriver14 on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:13.
I agree. I put it on my favourites as a resource. Thanks, mate!
No worries mate. Also as
Submitted by Sire on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:15.
No worries mate. Also as this post mentions, it seems that as two nails were used one would surmise a cross rather than a single post
Two nails?
Submitted by TheGreatWhiteBuffalo on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:29.
One in each wrist and one in his feet. The problem is that what many believe are that three nails were used and with out the exact particulars do to the expunging of the existence of the man. It is really hard to know the truth.
What was important is what was remembered and what was recorded that can be proven.
Jesus existed.
Jesus is claimed to have taught at a synagogue at an early age.
Jesus taught to many, with no need for scrolls, he spoke with authority.
Jesus had a group of followers.
Jesus was crucified and walked away from the tomb after a hasty removal from the cross.
In regards to two nails I
Submitted by Sire on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 22:37.
In regards to two nails I meant one in each hand. It they had nailed him to a pole only one nail would have been needed.
Sire my understanding is this...
Submitted by TheGreatWhiteBuffalo on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 23:04.
Jesus had to carry the cross beam to the pole onto which he would be placed and crucified with outstretched arms.
His legs were not broken and the spear used to pierce his side could have been a mechanical tool to give the illusion of being speared.
Jesus could have passed out from the lack of sleep two days or more knowing that this was going to be the real deal. Jesus needed to survive and have friends to help revive him so the real question is did Jesus die?
A better question that you need to ask yourself is did Jesus have to die for your sins? Are you a killer?
You see if your god requires such a sacrafice then your god isn't big enough to forgive with a word. If your god can't forgive with a word how could your god create with a word?
My GOD is the GOD of Creation. There is only one GOD and my GOD is not evil. My GOD does not have two parts one part wrath and one part love. My GOD is only Love, Pure and Holy...
The reason they did not have
Submitted by Sire on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 23:16.
The reason they did not have to break his bones is because he had already died as was required to fulfill scripture. I am not a killer but according to scripture the answer is yes he did have to die. This does not make God evil as He knew that his Son would be resurrected.
In those days they believed in sacrifices of animals for the absolution of sins, but this was only temporary requiring more sacrifices. Jesus being without sin was the ultimate sacrifice especially because he went to his death willingly.
Ah had already died or appeared to be dead?
Submitted by TheGreatWhiteBuffalo on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 23:26.
There is a difference and that difference is enough to lead me to a conclusion that the death of Jesus was only a feigning of a person who was subject to extreme stress.
My wife feigned I thought she died, I called out to her and there was no response, then she revived, she wasn't out for very long, but it was long enough to give me a scare. And how could I explain what had happened? It was a real difficult time in our lives.
I believe that her heart stopped because her complexion went very pale... It was quite the kiss...
One believes what one
Submitted by Sire on Sat, 09/08/2007 - 23:30.
One believes what one wishes.
Another Great Phrase to Mislead, Confuse and Conflict People
Submitted by TheGreatWhiteBuffalo on Sun, 09/09/2007 - 08:26.
See no Evil, Speak no Evil, Hear no Evil = Knowing no Evil.
You and I both know that People can be nasty, mean and evil. To exist in a society is to know Evil and to expose that evil we need to do more than wish.
How did the Jewish nation make a Messiah? Together the Jewish nation and the Roman Empire both expunged the existence and knowledge of this man Jesus.
That sounds pretty evil to me. The damage is done, but to worship Jesus is to reject the teachings of Jesus.
I would rather follow the footsteps of Jesus and have a personal walk with GOD knowing the reward of Heaven awaits me for eternity. I know this to be true through personal experience and vision.
Jesus died!
Submitted by Darius on Sun, 09/09/2007 - 00:40.
Great research hutt.Yes most christians are misinformed about the method used by the romans during this period a single pale of wood was used with no cross member to make it a t shape found in many churches.However that does not change the fact he died and arose.Whether his arms where placed over his head or stretched wide matters not because he is alive and by his stripes we are healed,I can attest to that as well as many others.Keep the faith.
Yep, Jesus died on a cross.
Submitted by communat on Sun, 09/09/2007 - 10:21.
So say the Scriptures, so I believe.
Are Scriptures reliable? See here.
__________________________
Yours,
Communat / Mark Whitbeck
Founder / Communati.com
You talk. I'll listen.
Don't believe just the bits and pieces
Submitted by TheGreatWhiteBuffalo on Sun, 09/09/2007 - 10:35.
I trust what GOD has revealed, I don't trust the bits and pieces that man has recorded.
In a day of the Lord, is that a 24 hour time period?
Who determines the measure of anything? Not I...
How is the small great and the great small in the eyes of GOD?
Belief...
What do you believe?
Interesting comments...
Submitted by huttriver14 on Sun, 09/09/2007 - 19:56.
friends.
Fascinating, huttriver.
Submitted by James25 on Mon, 09/10/2007 - 10:13.
Just remember to 'always look on the bright side of life', whether on a cross or a pole..
I'll remember that...
Submitted by huttriver14 on Fri, 09/21/2007 - 23:29.
mate next ime I'm strung up!lol
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